In this episode Terence welcomes back his brother and friend Shawn B. McCullers Esq. to discuss the idea of "Crabs in a bucket."
They discuss how Blacks must learn to work together and not against one another in order to achieve success. Success in not a finite resource.
They believe it is possible to disagree and learn from others. The fact that people take the time to pour out and receive information from one another is an act of love and respect and therefore should be treated as such.
People become better through experiences and we can all become better if we learn to listen to one another.
In this episode Terence welcomes back his brother and friend Shawn B. McCullers Esq. to discuss the idea of "Crabs in a bucket."
They discuss how Blacks must learn to work together and not against one another in order to achieve success. Success in not a finite resource.
They believe it is possible to disagree and learn from others. The fact that people take the time to pour out and receive information from one another is an act of love and respect and therefore should be treated as such.
People become better through experiences and we can all become better if we learn to listen to one another.
I could do came a long way. And I could do, I could do all I can do. I'm not afraid of the moment. I'm not afraid I can't hold it. Hi guys. I gotta get up in the morning. I gotta do it for Kobe, I know I'm going to take you whatever controllers Show me your opponent's coming opponent. Okay, welcome back. Oh, welcome to the peace project. My name is Terence Shigg. And today we're going to be talking about what I call crabs in a bucket. crabs in a bucket. Now most of us have heard that story or that phrase before, but those of you that haven't, let me just give you a brief idea of what I'm referring to when I talk about that. That's the idea that when you are trying to do something that is positive, or when you're trying to do something that will uplift society yourself. There are others that will, let's just say, try to make it difficult for you to do that. That comes in many different different forms. That's a, that's the relative that says that what you're doing isn't possible for you to do because they know who you are, or that's the person that tells you who do you think you are trying to give me advice when I know where you come from? And it gets even more insidious? Because sometimes it's the voice inside your head that tells you who do you think you are? Because I know what you did. And we all have a closet. We all got something in our closet. That's just human nature. Nobody's perfect. There was only one perfect human being and he wasn't human. So today we're going to talk about crabs in a bucket. What that means how that shows up. And then the question I want you to, to ponder as we talk about this, in today's world in light of everything that's going on, because I know many people have asked this question is will this country survive? Will this country continue to be the greatest country in the world with all of the crabs in a bucket?
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Terence Shigg:And we're back. Now one of the things that really got me thinking about this is everybody has twitter or not everybody but most people go to Twitter and they look at it and you you get some information and you comment back and you look through it and you kind of gather information about what's going on. Well, I was looking through Twitter the other day and I saw a conversation. Actually I just saw someone trending. I saw cardi B and Candice Owens, Candace Owens trending. And I'm like that's an interesting, those two people, I wouldn't think that they'd have a conversation, but they were trending. So I'd look at it and it's them going back and forth over an argument. And I have to admit, I didn't read I didn't even read the tweets, because the first thing that came to mind to me is crabs in a bucket. And when I say that it came to mind because I I see that two young sisters arguing on a public forum as evidence to be used against black people to show and to hold up and to make light of our stance and our opinions and our intellect. Now, again, I didn't read the poll, so I'm not arguing who was right and who was wrong. I'm just arguing that the forum in which they were doing it in the manner in which they were doing it harms us all and harms us As a society and harms us all as black people, because if we can't come together, then that will be used against us. Now, I'm not saying that they have to agree, I'm not saying that they have to, to not voice their opinion. I'm just saying that it reminded me, in my opinion, of crabs in a bucket, meaning with everything going on, with black people, with the state of the country right now. And everybody trying to get their voices heard in the black community trying to get its voices heard, to deal with the systemic racism, and the overt blocking of the opportunities that were guaranteed, supposedly guaranteed to us in the Constitution. Now things have gotten better, but they still haven't gotten to the point where they should be in that they are equal to everyone else. And when people make the argument, say it's gotten better, then I'm going to counter that argument with well, that should have never been here in the first place. If you want to say I should be thankful that it's gotten better than I'll give you the argument that it shouldn't had to have gotten better, it should have always been at this place. Because of the words if you take them as they are written in their meeting, then all people are created equal, all have the right, and alienable right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. It didn't say that that was only for one color of people or one nationality of people that said all people, yet it was not equally granted to all people. And yes, we've gotten better. But if you want to hold on to the argument that it's gotten better than I'm going to go to the argument that it should have never had to have gotten better, should have always been this way. And that's what we're fighting for now. I was talking, I was actually the idea that came up I wanted to talk about with the Contract with America. And then the idea was crabs in a bucket. That idea was I was watching ours going through Twitter. And then I got the whole argument between cardi B and Candace Owens,
Shawn B. McCullers Esq.:right. Yeah. Pete that yesterday?
Terence Shigg:Yeah. And then somebody had written that it's like crabs in a bucket. I'm like, why do we do this to
Shawn B. McCullers Esq.:we still killing each other. You ourselves. And then this morning, I'm looking at Facebook and my buddy that I grew up with in LA, he's telling me that his was I think it was his cousin got killed in a drive by yesterday. And I'm like all this stuff. And we, and I, and know what I'm saying? And I don't want to feed into That's what I'm saying. Other rism? Right, because really, that is a byproduct of a whole bunch of other things that we're never talking about in this country, right? We're always blaming black folks. You know, the theory is that we're irresponsible, unaccountable, we don't follow the law. We don't follow rules. We just wild animals savages, right? For the most savage fucking people on the face of the planet, right? everywhere they go. They rape, murder, pillage and destroy, right through disease through trickery, after somebody showed you how to survive in their environment. Right. So if we're not going to talk about the issues that created this, this the systemic violence, in unadulterated level of violence that we see in our community, and while Never mind the fact that y'all got a hold on the serial killers, and school shooters in the church shooters, but so never have a conversation about why the white community is not accountable for them. motherfuck. That's right. So when we talk about our people is easy to feed into all these stereotypes about black people in violence, because that is the mantra, I go back to the book. The book is called drug crazy. I read it in like 2001, I was taking a class at University of Delaware. And my professor was she was a female. She was an Olympian of some sort. She was real cool, but it was deep because I knew a lot of the drug war stuff from our work at Border Patrol. That was when I was out rehabbing my back injury. Right. So looking at what we were looking at, you know, app and Lowe's, 1500 pounds, 600 pounds, you know, weed mix Coke, whatever. hearable, what have you. So I'm looking at that. But one of the things that the book got into that I found really interesting, and I've carried it with me throughout my life, is that the book was talking about how America has a system in place to demonize groups of people, and they employ this system, whenever they feel that whiteness is threatened. Right? That's essentially what it said. So, you know, the first part is, they find the issue first it was the the Asian folks coming over to build the Transcontinental Railroad, right. So they came over had their opium dens what happened to white women wanting to go to the opium pit? Now they lay it up in the opium dens and white boys, man, then the white guys are mad. So now it's a problem for everybody because y'all got a prop. Mind you dayss was cool. And the black people were slaves. You didn't say we had a look? Right? So how do you demonize them? So then they start with media, they start talking about the issue, putting it out there for consumption in the newspaper, right? And then when they get the public tide rolling with them, then they start enacting legislation trying to criminalize the behavior, right? Then once they criminalize the behavior, now the people are with them. Now they can go in and be as forceful as they want to, and imposes the most harsh sanctions that they feel because they got the public's IRA, and the public is behind them under the whole guise of keeping whiteness seek. Right? So here we are full circle, every issue we're looking at in America, right. And I think the interesting thing about this tie is that the dichotomy is not so subversive. It's really out in front, he has been 46 minus one has been very good for the expert for exposing the system. Right? And now that you look at him, he's up against the wall. He was always dog whistling, I'll say it wasn't a dog. It was it was straight up whistle for racism, right. But now it's so overt. So then we get back to Alright, we deal with that juxtaposing that too. All right, well, let's not talk about that. Let's talk about what's going on in black community because they still killing each other. And until you stop killing each other, you ain't gonna be a human being. Right, we got all these conditions that we want to put on, when black people are supposed to be valuable in this society.
Terence Shigg:It's, it's almost as if that not being talked about, feeds into this whole crabs in a bucket mentality meaning, since that is almost a hidden truth, to some, and I'm not even gonna say to buying say a hidden truth, it's, it's not talked about truth is that we, we fight against one another, rather than trying to deal with that systemic racism as a as a group of people together. It's okay, well, I won't even agree with that. But I'll agree that this thing that happened in the past, it's like the the sounds of the word that the world that say, you know, racism, or racism is always exist, or slavery has always existed, but other groups haven't had the problems that you've had the problem with your group. And the thing that drives me nuts is it's his group too, because he's a black man. The problem with Yo, is that you don't take responsibility. It's
Shawn B. McCullers Esq.:right, the false the false moniker of like, right, lack of self doubt, I was headed there too, because that's the key factor that undergirds their argument. Right? So it's always this wantan and rampant set over sexualization over criminalization, criminalization, but this desire this ravenous desire within black people to be law breakers, right? That is stereotypical, by by any standard, and not even one is being lived up to because let's be frank, if they were correct, and we had all this rampant and wanton criminality that's inherent in our DNA, then white folks would have been wiped off the face of the earth, the minute we got access to guns, because that's what protected. Right? You're still here. We haven't tried to eliminate your race, we haven't engaged in a genocide against you. Right? So the fallacy of it is obvious on its face. But like many things in this country, people still refuse to look at it. Right? It's in your face. You just you avert your eyes. Right. And then you engage in cognitive dissonance. Yeah, that's not really what it is. You know what I'm saying? It's really your criminality. It's not the fact that, you know, as this contract talks about, right, and this contract talks about, you know, the deprivation of resources, and the perpetuation of poverty through systematic institutions, that are that are serialized in our country and in our economy, and in our educational system, right. That's what I would they want to talk about, right?
Terence Shigg:And so one of the things I wanted to get into because I know we get, I know me do together, we get heated, we start talking, but we never really talked about our background. So to kind of break down, how you how you got to where you are. And when I say that, I don't mean, you know what I mean? Meaning what were your influences, Where'd you grow up? Okay, how did you get where you are?
Shawn B. McCullers Esq.:Okay, so, flashback 1973, the year the superstar in the head, the whole project it was Philadelphia. Well actually I lived with St. When I was born in West Philadelphia parks IPS k all day, you know, um, the reality is I grew up in the city of Philadelphia as a young guy. Okay, as a young guy growing up in Philly, two things happen to me when I was about three years old, I got burned by sulfuric acid, we were living in projects, maintenance may came in and cleaned out the drain a mix of uric acid with water as you know, salt for water explosion. I'm walking out the kitchen, I turned back because I hear the explosion. Get the acid on my face, close my eye fortunately saved my eye. But as you know, I've got a lifelong scar. So I'm in the hospital around Christmas time that year, and there will be 76. So in the spring of that year, my grandfather who was a Philadelphia Police Officer, in the 50s, in order from our guests, he was 22 years old. So yeah, in the 50s and 60s, and early 70s. In Philadelphia, my grandfather came through and he gave me and my cousin had a summer police test with the little you know, the band had the holes in and all that stuff that turned me out, man, I wanted to be a cop ever since I was three years old. Right? So fast forward. That was that was that was it for me. So I was playing with guns, cops and robbers. the ironic thing is always wanted to be the Indian though I never wanted to be the cowboy. Right? So fundamentally, you understood, you know, psychologically, that there was a distinction being made and how these people were presented, because at that time, all you had was cowboy boots. Right? That was the big thing. And then you got chips and things of that nature. But I never wanted to be the cowboy. I always wanted to be the Indian. I was like, cool, that works. And fast forward. I'm 12 years old. I'm on a school bus, we ride in a school, I had the benefit of going to private, Seventh Day Adventist schools, most of my formal education. I only didn't go to private school from first grade. I mean, from having fifth grade and all the sixth grade I went to public school. Other than that, I'd always been had the blessing of being in private Christian education. So I got a good education. Still coming home to the projects dressed in that uniform. No. Church boy, I went to church boy, I didn't first couple knuckles though. Me a brick or two, we was cool. I was I was better than the hood. You know what I mean? Right. But that's the reality of living in those neighborhoods. Right. Even then you dealing with a economic depression, and, and lack of access or lack of access to resources, lack of viable resources that feed into the rough neighborhoods that we grew up in, right, because survival is being able to withstand your environment. Right? We not exist and we're not living yet. We're surviving. Right? We're getting there. So fast forward. 12 options. Absolutely. Right. So I'm 12 years old. I'm on a school bus. We ride out to have her town which is a county outside of Philadelphia. And we're riding the bus with the public school kids that go to mostly white schools out there. Well, one of my buddies on the bus white guy named Mike and one of the boys from my school named Mike a get into a fight. I break the fight up. I'm friends with both of them. Break the fight up, we get to the school school bus driver comes in Hey, it was fight on a bus tells the principal principal lines us all up out front at the steps like listen, I heard it was a fight on the school bus. What happens? Everybody tells her what happened, you know, little fight, what have you. I didn't say nothing initially. And then she was like, well, Shawn, your name was mentioned, oh, I just broke the fight up. I wasn't involved in a fight. Everybody corroborated my story. Well, I'm gonna suspend you anyway, with the caveat that you can't make up your schoolwork. So I'm livid because I'm getting ready to be the valedictorian of my little three person, eighth grade class, right, three people in my eighth grade class. So Mrs. Fat was the principal at the time. white lady, she went to the church that the school was housed there. My other classmate shall remain nameless was a white female and then I had a black female. That was my classmate. Obviously, she still white girl went to the church to, so they want her to be the valedictorian. So that's how they accomplish that. So I never got over that. Right, in terms of not having somebody advocate for me. I felt like my mom and my grandmother didn't really fight the issue. I didn't even want to go to graduation. I remember getting a suit nary thing, white suit pad on a blue tie was always fresh. Yeah, me. And I could remember, I don't even know go, you know what I mean. But I think, you know, not that they wouldn't have fought harder for me. I don't know if they thought it a bigger issue that would have that kind of impact on my life at that time. So in many ways I'm thankful for that was the first time I decided that, hey, maybe I'll be a lawyer. Not many black guys that come from the neighborhoods that we come from get to live all their dreams, right? I am an example of that. And that happened here in America. Right? Now the question becomes, well, if you've been moderately successful, and you've gotten to do all the things you wanted to do, is that an argument for you not? for blacks not being able to succeed in America? You've defied the argument, Norfolk I happen. I'm an I'm an anomaly with a whole bunch of good fortune, and a name that sounds really white showing the colors. Right? So So you mean an Irish kid? Right? Right. Okay. I'm in near the black Irishman. I slide it, you know, I come into the interview about my speed just is somewhat proper. My I have my grammar together. I can get through a few interviews, I had interview classes at school, that was part of some of the things that none of the guys that I grew up with had, you know, they're me. So then fast forward, I comply fulfilling my favorite ask the cop in Philly. So the whole time she's going through her Academy, I'm kind of there with her, we go through her notes. And she's telling me different information because they're grooming me because they know that's where I want to be. So I had that blessing. But the one or two most important things that they said to me was one, you will have a lot of power. Once I got my acceptance letter Border Patrol, you will have a lot of power. Remember to treat people the way you want to be treated. Right. And the second thing was my dad told me when since I was little. And my grandfather said, Listen, being a police officer is not a job. It's a lifestyle. You got to live your life a certain way. Right, which, you know, I had the benefit of that. So I was able to tell my life I did stupid stuff. Stuff, I probably could have got locked up for getting in fights and all that kind of stuff as an angry teen. But a lot of that is because of it. My father wasn't aware. You know what I mean? Now, I'm not an advocate or proponent of people lacking self accountability or self awareness. But the reality is the conditions in our neighborhood. I grew up in projects and down West Philly, and up Cobbs Creek Parkway, when my grandmother, my great grandmother and grandfather's house was, you know, you will get you get shootings and murders and knifings and all that. You know, I know everybody from murderers, the preacher, some preachers that were murderers, you know, they're saying the reality is, that's the benefit of growing up in that neighborhood. But it's a harsh reality. Right? The benefit is, you know, we we coast with ease, right? We speak the language of the room that we're in very easily, because we have to be all of those things at once when our white counterparts don't have to be any of that,
Terence Shigg:right now break down, break down that term for those that don't know what code switch.
Shawn B. McCullers Esq.:code switching is when you go into a room or atmosphere, and you have to put on your proper diction, your professional stance, and you have to speak the language of the people in the room that you're in. Right as opposed to then I might go home and I talk to my family in a relaxed fashion vernacular, you know, slang or you know, laughing with the kids talking about what's going on or me a lot of cussing. You know, he says it is what it is my I just got to be about that. You have such a broad vocabulary. Why do you choose curse curse, because I like to curse. Veteran curse words, is what it is.And that's the reality of who I am. So again, the duality of code switching, right, right. You speak in a language that's appropriate for the room that you're in, but sometimes you have to, or some people believe they have to switch it up in the presence of people that don't look like them in terms of their skin color or their culture, right. So you switch to whatever vernacular or language literally sometimes is apropos for that environment.
Terence Shigg:Right and if you need it, and then It almost becomes a, it's, well, not almost it becomes a natural thing when you're not aware of it. It's all it's something that just it happens. And I mean, I've done it before. And before I became aware of this, the reason that I was doing it, it was just a natural thing. Right? We just absolutely go into a certain environment. It's okay. Basically, talk like you've been raised you were raised by someone as your mama would say. You got a mama. That's right.
Shawn B. McCullers Esq.:You got some home training. Yeah,
Terence Shigg:my mom was an evangelist herself. So she was of that mind of that speak, that I would see her get up and, and switch her tone and switch the way she taught? Because that's just it was a natural flow. And knowing that now, though, it's almost it's almost humorous sometimes, because I'll hear I'll see somebody doing an interview. And I think it just happened. Actually, it just happened. I'm at the convention, Republican convention when they had, right, I think it was Herschel Walker, and Santorum up there. And Santorum said, Oh, well, he speaks so well. Oh, speaks of intelligent and I'm like, how come when a black person actually just talks? Well, or talks like everybody else, or talks in a way that you believe is intelligent, all of a sudden he speaks? Well, and that's that code switch that absolutely, that we are forced to do? It's not his absolute? Because if we didn't, and people say, Oh, well, you're not forcing it. What if we didn't, we wouldn't get the job, or we were apartment,
Shawn B. McCullers Esq.:or you will have an opportunity? Right? So when I walk in, if I don't call switch, right, and as part of the black side, you will sell out? Yeah, right. You when they're talking or proper to them white folks. Now you come in here, you think you would talk to me anyway, you want to talk to me like you talk to them? Listen, bro, stop it, I'm from here, you're saying the fact that I have a professional voice or that I switch in, in the way that I speak is sometimes you got to speak the language of the room to get your point across, I can't go into court, and just cuss randomly I might get cast occasionally is where somebody says, however, I consider that a bonus, nice, put a special inflection on it for the judge. However, the reality of it is, is that it is a necessary thing. If we don't have that, then we're not educated well enough. And therefore that translates to, you won't be able to do the job because you don't speak like the rest of your counterparts, or you don't speak as accurately, they put some fudge on it, right? You're not as as technically precise in, in communications, as your counterparts and therefore you are no longer qualified for the job. So if you want to have the opportunity to elevate your living status, by having a job in corporate America, or in a government or in a private company, that you're going to be paid a salary that's commensurate to or almost commensurate to the abilities that the skills that you bring to the table, then you have to code switch, because most of the time what code switching without evaluated in my life, is it boils down to I have to make other people comfortable with my presence in a room. And that's a burden and none of the white guys that I've ever spoke to, or asked about that issue. feel the same?
Terence Shigg:Yes, yes. And so and not only that burden of making those who don't look like you feel comfortable. It's, it's almost as if now, you have to justify that to the people that do look like you. Absolutely, absolutely. They don't understand, right? And this is that crabs in a bucket mentality that I I'm really, it's just keeps ringing over and over in my head. It's like damned if you do and damned if you don't, if I go out there and put in the work and and say that, okay, I'm, I'm going to make a difference and I'm gonna be that example. Then the those and I can't say all but a portion of those people that I'm trying to be an example for, for my community are going to look at it and go, okay, he thinks he's better than he does. He's, um, yeah. And like, I want you to understand I'm not doing it because I I'm doing it knowing that I'm no better than anybody of anybody. I know that.
Shawn B. McCullers Esq.:And what have we always talked about? We made better decisions than the people that we grew up with this. It's not about me being better than you. Yeah. It's not about me having more access than you necessarily some cases that's true on my part, right because I think private schools Gives you an edge. Right? But the reality of
Terence Shigg:higher education does, you know? Yes. But you have to, you have to recognize it and take that opportunity. And that opportunity is not diminished. But there are less of those opportunities for us, then for the other. Other pop.
Shawn B. McCullers Esq.:Absolutely, absolutely. Absolutely. You got to get in where you fit in. And, and that doesn't mean and I'm a sellout because I think anybody I My belief is anybody that knows me, or has worked with me, would label me a sellout. I highly doubt that shit. I think that's gonna be the case from anybody that I've ever worked with. And I find it ironic when you talk to folks that believe that, because they are just as stubbornly obstinate, about the possibility of being wrong, as a lot of the folks that stereotype you for all of those things are about you not qualifying for that stereotype. So back to the crabs in a barrel, you're giving me just as hard a time for living my life, and trying to better my circumstances, then I get from the people who are trying to keep the opportunities from me because of where I come from, and what I look like.
Terence Shigg:Right, right. Is is absurd. Yeah, it's, it's, it's like this insidious loop. And, and so breaking that, that chain or getting out of that bucket really takes an awareness to go in? And I know I have to, I have to be cognizant of it sometimes. Because there are those that look like us that do things that I think are kind of productive, I think, I think them saying certain things and then making certain arguments are counterproductive, meaning they make it harder for us to show that this systemic racism does exist, and that these lack of opportunities are created by an unjust system, that the same rights that were written down on paper didn't apply equally, then and they still don't apply equally now. And for those of those those people that say that we have moved, we've come a long way, then my argument to them is we shouldn't have had to come a long way. If those words were true. Absolutely. You're making my argument when you when you say we've come a long way, then you have to acknowledge that we weren't there when they wrote that down.
Shawn B. McCullers Esq.:Absolutely. And you have to also acknowledge that we're still not there yet, right? Because we've come a long way. But we're not there yet.
Terence Shigg:Because so great that that actually says that we're still moving, there's still some place to go if we're not there yet. Um, and so I have to kind of, I have to really think about it, when those out there and I'll kind of circle this back around to Candice and cardi because I don't know if I agree with either one of them. But I I refuse to go out and and personally attack either one of them. And that to me, that's the difference. I'm not gonna break. I'm not gonna person I may attack. I may disagree with your arguments, I may counter your argument, but I'm not going to personally attack you. And I think that's where things get. That's where things get totally messed up. Because now you're no longer even talking about people. You're talking about a person. Right? You're taking that person to be the example of a people when that's not what you're talking about, oh, he does this. And she does. Okay. Yeah. And then those that want to have that, and we've talked about this before, there are certain people out there that want an excuse, they want a a reason to not listen to the other side of the argument. And they will use the those arguments to say, Okay, well see, I believe this. And this person that looks like you says the same thing. So right, I must be right.
Shawn B. McCullers Esq.:Right. Exactly. Therefore, they are the adjustment for all of y'all. Yeah. They speak for everybody, right? Do you have different experiences, or different talents or bring a different viewpoint or from your experience to this argument? You're all in that side? It says he's right. And his side agrees with me that we're right. You're wrong. Yeah. So I mean,
Terence Shigg:I'm more crab goes back in the bucket.
Shawn B. McCullers Esq.:Exactly. Is this a rat? no freedom for you. It's the bucket or the pot, you know, to the to the sea is the bucket or pot? Which What? So it's absolutely insane. And I think you've made a good point I'm I am trying to work on being able to have these discussions around these issues with black folks. And white folks are light because because of our experience, you know, being Border Patrol agents, we got to meet people from every place. As you can imagine, right every country, every city, if we sin committed was a blessing for me in my life, and El Centro, and Indio Valley, all that stuff. But the reality of it is, when you have such broad experience, that's the other thing they count against you. Well, I'm going to speak from my experiences, just like you tend to speak from yours. So if I'm speaking to you about my experiences, why are you telling me that that's not true? Like, that's the other piece of this? Yes. Well, that's not true. Well, I didn't say it was true for everybody, it seems to say, right, but there's a segment of society that this is very true for, right? I fall into I'm not, we aren't one, a one homogenous group of people that have one idea and one set of thinking and one way of thinking, and one set of ideas. We are a multicultural, diverse group of black people, right? people that share the same pigmentation in our skin and various shades. However, our experiences are different, right? Where you live could could affect your experiences. There are some black folks that will tell you swear up and down it. This is not a racist country. Right. But they live somewhere where they've been discriminated against their entire life. And they start talking to you about what happened to you like, Brian, what are you talking about? That was racist as hell? Well, no, that's just how people are. Okay. Does that mean they are not racist? Is that is that when we go with this argument? Is it that see, it seems somewhat disingenuous to be, right? I mean, in just like we don't, or I will see me, just like I will, I refuse to allow any white person to tell me what racism is, what it looks like, how I should experience it, or how I should feel about it. Because you aren't the person that's experiencing racism. And I think our society, you know, even within, we have colorism within our community, right? light skinned versus dark skin. That's an issue in our community. But you all wouldn't know about it, because it's not your community. Right? So if I'm talking to you about it, and I say, Well, look, colorism can sometimes be as bad as racism, right, in its effect in a deleterious effect that it has on the community, right, Krabs? Man, you're right. You tell me, well, that's not true. Because you're all black? Well, would you really know and say, how would you really know that? Right, we're trying to address the issues in our community. And to start we have to talk about them. Because, uh, you know, when I'd asked you to delve into the recent writings on and this may be a subject of another podcast, but the recent writings on how children from inner city communities, black and brown children have worse PTSD than people that have gone to war. Right. We're not even dealing with MRI and dealing with mental health in our communities. Whoo. That's a taboo. Yeah. Listen, every ready to cut you over that? Right? No, that mean, ain't crazy. ain't crazy, man. Wait a minute. I didn't say, Man, I said you might have some issues that you want to talk to somebody about, bro. So are we talking about it, but I'm not a psychiatry psychology degree. But I am not a psychologist or psychiatrist. I will tell you that I've been and it has helped me in my life. Yeah. And I I counsel people all the time. seek some help. Because it is help full Yeah. No, yeah, it really is.
Terence Shigg:And I think one of the things that we were talking about and even talking about the the contract with black America, it's almost as if we need a contract amongst black Americans ourselves to go Okay, even though we're not a homogenous group with the same beliefs and the same experiences. We have all experienced and homogenous system or a systemic system that has not been in our best interest. I'll put it, I'll put it and
Shawn B. McCullers Esq.:you always do.
Terence Shigg:Yeah. And as
Shawn B. McCullers Esq.:I don't put it nice.
Terence Shigg:It's a gift. It's a gift. And the absolute The, the fact that we have all been affected by this system, means that we need to come together to acknowledge that system together. And and like I said, the problem when we have those that say Well, that system doesn't even doesn't even exist. Gives fuel to the fire of those who say, Well, I don't I don't have to have that conversation because see that person over there says it doesn't exist. I don't think it exists. That person looks like you and therefore, I don't have to have it because they agree with me. I'm like, whoo, that's a, you just went right. A different logic. Exactly. illogical theory. Yeah, to get to this illogical conclusion. Right. This is a Is this a logic question?
Shawn B. McCullers Esq.:Right. No basic inductive, reasoning skills whatsoever,
Terence Shigg:and no common sense in that era whatsoever.
Shawn B. McCullers Esq.:None. Zilch.
Terence Shigg:All of us don't think the same. That's the common sense bar, we don't have the same belief. So just because one person says that they believe it does not mean it is true for all right,
Shawn B. McCullers Esq.:which, which is my, I guess, my formal training as both a law enforcement guy, and additionally, as an attorney has has cemented, but I don't know if I've always been this way, you might be able to tell me, I don't know. You knew me when I was young. And then when I grew up, right. So you, you were a great impetus to help him he grew up in a whole lot of areas, right. I'm out there 21 22 render route with all his authority and a gun. And I think I was fair to people in most cases. But my temper, you know, to me, and you counsel me on multiple occasions, I don't think I violate anybody's rights. But I didn't have the easiest temper. You know what I mean, I didn't have the most relaxed temperament. I was cool, until you start to act the fool. Once you hit fool, I was fool which, right? But, you know,
Terence Shigg:you have to have Yeah, from them. Even from growing up where you grew up to doing the job that you do that you did. We all have to have that switch. It's just what levels that switch that that the parameters in that, that switch have? Absolutely, depending on our environment.
Shawn B. McCullers Esq.:Absolutely. But I I'm grateful to you, man, you know, I love you. I tell anybody in the world. I love my big bro. You say? Real talk. Because you I mean, from the time I got there, you know what I mean? You You were the example. Right? And, and I know you're going through your own personal growth, and so on and so forth. But I've never once seen you angry, you know, they're saying we, we 20 some plus years into this thing, right into this brotherhood. And I think that the youth on this crabs in a barrel tip, they need that, right? They need those coping mechanisms, they need those skills. So I try to be reflective. And even, you know, we sometimes comment on the same issues on Facebook, you put it your way, I put it my way. I'm usually straight in Look, that's dumb, right? And here's why it's dumb. Right? And it's gonna be factual. Right? Yeah, cuz now I tend to argue from only facts. Right? I will identify my opinion, right? But the factual substance of what I'm arguing is going to be informed. And it's going to be informed by me reading across platforms, learning, watching things across town, like Fox News. But I'm gonna watch it from time to time because I need to see what's going on. So that my, my opinion can be informed. Right? And if I have those arguments, I'm you know, I was in one back and forth, or Facebook, but I try to use it as a platform to give people information. Right. So if you have an issue, I'm going to say what I have to say, don't get me wrong, but I'm also going to try to give you information. Now if you're not open to the information, because I always invite Listen, if you have something factual, please show me. Let me check it out. Right, because my opinion can be informed as well. Right by something that I hadn't considered previously. Because it wasn't available to me or I didn't know to go to I'm not on Stormers and Breitbart, I actually checked out Breitbart from time to time. But you know, I'm not on the rest of them join. So I would, I would appreciate I've been trying to reach out and understand and it's something as a community, we really have to do if we're going to get out of this crabs in a barrel thing. We have to inform our opinions. We have to stop believing that our experience is the only experience. I have to live through my experience. I have to benefit from my experience if I'm smart, right. But I do have to realize that my experiences and everybody's experience, and I can have my experiences and my opinions informed based upon interacting and listening to somebody else's experience or the information that they're presenting. I may agree or not agree, but it's information in a toolbox. Life is about building this toolbox. Life is about informing your opinion through your experiences, right? That's how you it's called growth. Right? We grow, we become better through our experiences, at least. Theoretically, right? We should be becoming better making better decisions, more wise decisions that render better outcomes for not only you but your family, because now we're at the age where we have kids, some of us have grown children, where that Oh, oh, but we still have they still are children. Right? They still are supposed to come to us with guidance, which with this crabs in a barrel thing. One of the things I talked about it, we'll go into this more detail folks about this contract with a black American. But one of the pieces that it does give that I like is that it talks about the systematic, ripping away of black males from the family structure, and how whether it's a nuclear family or extended family, it's important to have that male influence. But the question becomes, are you a positive influence in this mixture? And how can you be if you're not willing to talk to anybody about all the trauma that you experience?
Terence Shigg:Yes, yes. Because just by nature of having, being present isn't enough, meaning just being a male in the household isn't enough, is the idea is to be a, an example, a good example, an example of excellence, so that that young brother that's growing up in that household that has his father there knows what it's supposed to look like, and what he's supposed to do and has some guidance. And even if he's not in the household has a relationship. Yes, right, has somebody that looks like him that he can go back to. And I think, kind of going back to what you were talking about as far as your growth, and what I have learned in my personal journey, and what I always saw in you, was the fact that, and we, I talked about it with several people all the time, that whole idea of cognitive dissonance, meaning the idea of it being, I think of it simply as being hard or impossible for some people to hold two opposite ideas in their mind at the same time, which means they have to, they have to subscribe to one or the other. They can't hold on. All right, the people that I've talked to, and you being one of them, and I'm beginning to recognize my buddy bood, Chris is another one of them. Yes, the thing that I've noticed is, we have the ability to hold two totally opposite ideas in our head at the same time without being threatened. Running, you can have your opinion, you can tell me and it can be totally opposite of mine. But that's not going to take away from who I am.
Shawn B. McCullers Esq.:Absolutely, and doesn't diminish me as a person
Terence Shigg:at all right? That's your idea. And I understand that that's based on your experiences, and what you have drawn from those experiences and used as a filter to see what's going on now. And that in no way diminishes my experiences in my field. I can hold both of those ideas and same time and I can fight I can fight with you on some of yours, even though I don't agree with all of yours. Absolutely. They'll hold my principles. Absolutely. And I think that there is a and I think in order to get out of this bucket, more people have to be able to do that they have to get out of that. That mindset that it's going to destroy them mentally if they listen to another idea. Mm hmm. It's gonna enjoy them mentally, if they give a little bit to say, Okay, well, maybe that systemic racism thing that you say, maybe there's a piece of that, that I can agree with? Because that's not going to mean that I'm evil and horrible. And I'm, you know, I'm basically a card carrying kkk member, because I said that systemic racism exists.
Shawn B. McCullers Esq.:Right? Exactly. It doesn't diminish you. And there's, you know, there guys, and usually the guys were having these conversations with our guys that we work with, right? We worked in a field that was predominantly white and Hispanic males. That was when we worked with, we were very few and far between in terms of black men working in US border patrol, yes. Oh, however, and I frustrated a lot of them because I am ceiling on the ideas that I represent. Now, if I agree with something I'll say I agree with it doesn't matter that I agree with this part of it. But you're forgetting this part, this part and this part, right? And you have to make room for that. If you want to have a real discussion. I'm about having these discussions. Let's have them. They go hurt. They go. But we used to have these discussions on a midnight shift all the time. You didn't in the process and said, you know what I mean? Will black folks do this? why they do that? You know, they're saying, Well, you know why white folks do X, Y, Z? I'm really I really want to know, you know what I'm saying? And like I tell them I've never mistreated anybody. I don't care if you're upset and angry, you're still my brother, if you need something from me, I'm gonna give it to you. If I have it as yours, Carrie, even was it I just disagree with on principle because I think they're moronic. Even those folks, I am going to do for you whatever I can, because we have a bond that supersedes that we don't have to agree on everything. Right? Right. I've never seen you try to impress me. I've never seen you try to impress other people in my press. Right. So I notice good in you. The question is, Do you notice Gooding? Do you understand that? Me giving you the benefit of the experiences that I've had? I'm not talking about what I think. Because I'm out in my community. Right? I'm not talking about what I think goes on in court, because I'm in court. Right? You know, what I'm saying? Or at least I was over there much these days. You know what I mean?
Terence Shigg:And I think maybe, maybe, when you said that, one of the things that came to mind to me is I think people don't appreciate the the level of respect and, and, and power that you are giving them by sharing those things with them. Because if I did not care, and if I did not sit, give you a level of trust in this in this relationship. I would not talk to you. I remember exactly. I never tell people that will ask me Hey, is there something wrong between us? And the first thing I tell them, you'll know when there's a problem between me and you? Because I won't talk to you. And there it is? Boy, that's how you know when I'm talking to you.
Shawn B. McCullers Esq.:We good? We say, you know,
Terence Shigg:and so I think I when you said that? it just dawned on me, it's just like that the what else things were like, the Holy Spirit kind of taps on you. Because that's the point. The point is, it's not recognized when we're given it as, okay, I'm giving this information to you, I'm, I'm giving you this time out of my life, I'm giving you this kernel of my experience, because I trusted you are going to do something you're going to take it in and respected for what it is. And if I don't think you do that, I will wait.
Shawn B. McCullers Esq.:I just told one, man, I said, Listen, Bro, I talked to you, because I believe you're a good person. Yeah, I'm giving you it doesn't mean just because you you post racist memes that you're Raven, kkk member. I don't think that about you. But I'm telling you that the meme that you're posting has racist implications. And they are speaking for you. Right? It just like the means that I post speak for me that I am a proponent of fact, don't come at me with your theories. I take the time to talk to you. Because I believe it's worth the investment of my time and effort. Yes, right. Because I know you're good person, I want you to be a better person. Just like I'm striving to be a better person. I don't know what it's like to be white. Tough, dude. I don't know what it's like to be a white guy. Yeah, but I can imagine how you might feel right now. Right? I imagine that you're scared. You're scared for your kids, your wife, your family? Because you don't know what this new America is gonna look like. Right? And you've had all the advantages, whether you're willing to admit it or not. That's true. Right? I my theory on racism is Listen, you mad because you fucked up all this privilege. You're life still ain't shit. Don't be mad at me. Right? But the reality is, I'm investing in you, if I take my time to talk to you about these issues, type all these damn responses. I got stuff to do. But I'm doing it because I love you. I share a bug with you that I respect and appreciate. So I'm trying to give you an another view. So you can see where I'm coming from. So maybe at a time when it's critical and important in your life, that you have some perspective, that perspective is there, and vice versa? Because I'm getting it from you. I asked, please tell me how you came to your conclusion. I am genuinely interested. I can understand it.
Terence Shigg:I'm not trying to set you up. I really want to know because that's what I would expect from you to me. If absolute is asked me how did I come to this conclusion and I'm drawn out for you, I'll give you my thought process. And your I and I really I want that to be the thing that that people take away from this is recognize when those people that are your friends or are your acquaintances are connected to you are are investing in you that information in that time. There are those of us out there that are doing it, because we love you and that we want to give you that perspective so that even planting that little seed in the community as well as outside the community so that those people knowNo. Okay, I know the information as I told somebody one time, I can't unhear that, right? You can't unhear it's there, it's planted. Now what you do with it is totally up to you. Absolutely. But in order for this nation to heal, in order for our communities to heal, we have to start giving each other that type of awareness, that type of benefit of the doubt that type of perspective to know that we're in this one, we're in this to win it and we're in this together, because I'm not doing this just because I have nothing better to do. I'm doing right because this is right, I was built, this is absolute to do. And that's it, do it, whether you are there.
Shawn B. McCullers Esq.:That's it, I'm gonna keep pushing, you gotta be it is because I feel it, earnest me to give information to people that look like me, so that they can be better so that they can have better experiences, which means I have to talk to people that look like you, right? Because if you need to understand, or if we're ever going to have a mutually beneficial exchange over time and a lasting change, it requires us to go outside of our own race, culture, religion, group, sex, what have you to understand others on a human level so that we can see them as equally human. And therefore, hopefully, society will follow and therefore lasting change. I don't want my kids fighting the same battle. Yes, they I don't want my babies my grandkids to be fighting the same battles. Yeah, cuz as long as I'm alive, you put a finger on mine, I'm coming. You got to see me. Yes, you might not make it to court. I'm gonna keep the stack. We all know how I am. Yes, you may not making the court if I get you before they get t. So why is it that we want a society with us ness, where we feel when anybody feels that that's necessary? Yes, based on how someone looks, where they come from, what their religion, their beliefs, what they like or dislike their sexuality, who the hell cares? We're human beings. And while I don't have everybody else's agenda, I'm going to tell you, when I flew up to Minnesota to hear Angela Davis speak, September 2019, I believe at the University of Minnesota, she kept her whole life stack. You know what I mean? And one of the most true, the most true, the truisms that I got from her is she said, All struggle is interconnected. So if I'm not a proponent of gay rights, and I'm not a proponent of unisex bathrooms, and I'm not a proponent of, you know, I'm anti abortion, so on and so forth. Listen, all of those struggles are connected. The women's suffrage movement, which they just celebrated the 100th anniversary, right? Didn't come from a white women. That struggle came from the abolitionist struggle for people to vote in general. Yes, right. And out of that came the movement for women that had a right to vote, because you all were considered property as well, whether you were white, or black. So all struggle is interconnected, whether we like it or not. That is the reality of it. Now, black folks will tell you, and I'm one of them that will tell you don't hijack civil rights for your own agenda. I have a problem with that. But I can speak freely about that and understand that just struggle was important to you. You know, I can understand that, however, and I might be willing to help you. You know what I mean? It just depends on how the issue evolve. However, I do understand that there are people that don't think and believe like I do, and they have just as much right to think and believe in the way that they do. As I have to think and believe in the way that I do. Now, when we act on those thoughts and beliefs. They might cross a line, right? If you treat people poorly because you believe something about them to be true because they belong to a specific race group culture or religion. That's very different. You become an "ist" in my category, a racist, ethno centrist, you know, a sexist because you're acting on those disbeliefs or those stereotypical beliefs that may not be true to people that you're you're actually dealing with. We have to recognize the human condition. We have to be human. And in our community, we're fighting so many battles on so many fronts. Why do I want to fight somebody that looks like me? Yes, yes. I want you to win.
Terence Shigg:Right. And that's it's imperative, if never before even more so now, because we got the stage. We got the mic. It's our turn. It's our time to say, okay, we've, we've waited. We've petitioned we've marched Okay, we've gotten better. But now it's time to do the work that we've started a long time ago by our forefathers, but it's time to actually get these things done. It's not time to. And that's the, that is why now, above all other times, as a group, we got to, we got to get rid of that bucket. And it's almost as if, and I love the power of because everybody and I talked to we talked to lots of different people. And I think, what are the common things that I hear and people understanding and people joining in this? This I'm not even call it a fight. I'm gonna call it a battle a war is they've been outside the bucket, they know what it looks like. Right? Right. They know what the scene looks like, they will go back to the beach, right? I go into the pot, right? And once you know that, and once you see that, you know that it's possible. That whole you want more people experienced that it's not okay, even if you put me back in the pot in the in the bucket. And if I can get one out, I'm gonna let him go. Because I know what's out there.
Shawn B. McCullers Esq.:Absolutely. I want him to win, I want him to hit the ocean.
Terence Shigg:And that's, that's what we really got to come together. And that's why I like to contract with black America, I still want to go even further and have us have a contract amongst black Americans to say this is what this is. And again, people always say, Okay, well, you can't demand or tell. I don't care if that word doesn't really bet particular word doesn't matter. To me. What matters to me is that we understand our shared experiences. We understand our shared history, and we understand our shared wealth, and, and worth and, and all those things that we have. Not all those things that we have hidden from ourselves that now it's our time to actually be able to embrace those, and use those together as a people to get to where we should be already. Because absolutely that hole
Shawn B. McCullers Esq.:and eliminate and eliminate ignorance. Yes, yes, yes. Yes. It there's no reason to remain ignorant in this society. No, every day, we have a device in our hands, if not all of us, the majority of us that can answer almost any question you have with factual information. Right? There is no reason to remain ignorant. This this this contract with black America is deep, we're going to talk about it. It has some serious implications and some serious ability. It needs to be refined in some ways. But it is a great jumping off point. It is a great, you know, one of the things that we talk about Terry is that we talk about the movement and struggle, and the fight for civil rights and marching and making demands. But we don't have any concrete demands. We don't have a universal ask for black Americans. This is a great jumping off point, Terry, and I've been discussing this for years. Man, I think back to the early 90s, when we were talking about well known to the early 2000s, we talking about opening up group homes, to get young people in different states to get young people to be able to transfer between states under the social social justice system in the social work system. So they could see that they could make it in an environment that somebody didn't create for them. That was different than where they came from. Because oftentimes I saw we need to see freedom. And I think we recognize that even back then, is you just need to know you can make it right. You can make it anywhere. You can do anything. It's within you. You just have to have the drive desire and commitment to make it happen and be disciplined. And it's something your lifetime is going to be a workout exercise and how to be disciplined. You know, I got a tattooed on my arm, because I try to remind myself to be more discipline, right? Because the next thing that's coming is mastery, right? Because you need to discipline yourself to learn something that's going to allow you to be sustainable. You we have a benefit in this society is as depraved as it might be, as run down as it may be as inequitable as it may be. We have an opportunity right now to make that change. And we have a global opportunity. Talk about things coming full circle, we have a global opportunity. This contract with black America. I love the way it starts. And I want them to develop a piece with with go even further with business mentorship, right to teach people how to create global brands right? We can all benefit. It's not It's enough out there for everybody. But it's enough out there for everybody. We don't have to stop somebody else's dream to fulfill our own. That's a fallacy, right? That's a fallacy is not a finite, it's not a finite resource. Exactly. Right. Exactly. Success is not a finite resource. It is it is unbounded. If you can harvest it, right, it's unbounded. If you can be disciplined in your pursuit of it, it's unbounded in opportunities that it will present for your family and yourself. If you can harness it, and you had a mentorship to guide it and grow it, it's just unfathomable how far it can go. And that's in us as a people is in everybody. But particularly Yes, because we're born from struggle. We don't know what it's like to not struggle. So we always work hard, contrary to popular belief, contrary to stereotypical belief, we are hard working people, right? Most most work most people that are working poor black people, and brown people, right working poor working 2345. So that laziness stuff is a moniker that doesn't belong, right? It's a moniker that has no home here. But we have to make it abundantly clear that it has no home here by fulfilling your dreams and this contract.
Terence Shigg:All right, we're gonna. So is there anything that you wanted to add about? And I really I like the week round it up without even trying to talking about how to get past this whole crab in the bucket mentality. Other. But is there anything else that you wanted to mention before?
Shawn B. McCullers Esq.:If you are within the salad, his voice, please open your hearts and open your minds. But more importantly, open your ears. If somebody else is taking the time to pour into you what their experiences are not as a series of complaints. But in an effort to try to understand and come to some resolution. Please be willing to listen. Open your heart, your mind and most most of all your ears and listen, because what they're saying may not be readily apropos for you, but you don't know when you can use that tool out of your toolbox down the road. We can all be better for being being able to listen, sometimes.
Terence Shigg:Yes. All right, brother.
Unknown:Do the same a long way. And not to do what I can doall things. I can do. I'm not afraid of the moment. I'm not afraid to get up in the morning I gotta do it for Kobe. Zoning I know I'm going to take you whatever control is coming your opponent. I gotta a gift and I'm starting to own it.