In this special edition bonus episode, Terence L. Shigg invites Shawn B. McCullers Esq. on the show to discuss policing and societies deliberate indifference to the problems facing Black people in America. Mr. Shigg and Mr. McCullers are both Black men and retired law enforcement officers with a unique perspective on policing. Mr. McCullers is a civil rights attorney and social justice advocate in Atlanta, Georgia. We discuss the 4th amendment, what to do if you are stopped by the police and the judicial system as a whole.
In this special edition bonus episode, Terence L. Shigg invites Shawn B. McCullers Esq. on the show to discuss policing and societies deliberate indifference to the problems facing Black people in America. Mr. Shigg and Mr. McCullers are both Black men and retired law enforcement officers with a unique perspective on policing. Mr. McCullers is a civil rights attorney and social justice advocate in Atlanta, Georgia. We discuss the 4th amendment, what to do if you are stopped by the police and the judicial system as a whole.
So first off, just kind of go ahead and introduce yourself. What's happening folks, Sean mccullers, Esquire. I am an attorney, although that might shock So, former border patrol agent, US border patrol agent, and former federal Air Marshal. Now in retirement, political activists, social justice worker, and black man in the United States. Started in the projects now we hear I'm in Atlanta, Georgia. Anybody can use foundation teaches our youth to step off into life with their best foot forward without cowardice but with courage and dignity. ABC was founded by legendary life Heavyweight Champion Archie Moore in 1957. He had a heart and passion for helping the youth. He believed if we went into the
Dwayne E. Shigg :Business of prevention, we could save billions of dollars and millions of lives. He started ABC to teach us the basic ABCs of life. Are you concerned about the world today? Do you want to help train our youth to be that change needed in the world? Join us in the fight for equality in the fight for justice in the fight for our youth. If you would like to help, go to www dot ABC youth foundation.org that's www dot ABC us foundation.org be well and be blessed.
Terence Shigg :You have to be aware of what's been going on in the United States as far as the the social justice part of it as far as the the equity and the lack of equity in policing. All those things are going on right now. And it seems as though one of the things I said is like, it's almost like you have four camps. You have one camp that defines it one way then the other camp defines it. The other camp another way. And then you have this one says no, that's what they think. And this one says no, this is what we put putting all labels aside RS DS, I really don't care about all that. What do you think is going on? What is what is being what is not being heard, that people are trying to say?
Shawn B. McCullers Esq. :I actually don't think it's a matter of whether things are being heard or not. I actually believe it's more of a conscious decision. Right? People are choosing deliberate indifference, right? Because of their tribalism because of their particular political ideologies, or their fate religious ideologies, because, and I'll say fate religious ideologies, because the simple fact is, that every religion that we know of has the golden rule in some form of facet, right? And if we do Just started there. Right We would be a lot further along than we are. Simply treat others the way you want to be treated. That's the essence of humanity. Right? And the essence of, of unity. And the essence of coming together is patterned on a social contract, where everybody treats the other person, no matter your creed, color, race, sex, religion, culture, in the way that they want to be treated, and no one wants to be treated poorly, because that's the great, right? Well, you're treating me poorly because I'm black, or you're treating me poorly, because I'm white and lumping me in with those people that were slave owners. I never owned a slave, but you benefit from white privilege. you benefit from the systems and institutions that have been put in place here in this country that you know, started from And continue to perpetuate racism, inequality and intolerance. And the fear that seems palpable evident right now is that white Americans feel as though they have a right to lean on those systems of intolerance and inequity, more now than ever, because of the fear that I believe they have, that their numbers have been reduced, that they aren't the quote unquote, majority, and that the world is browning. Right. And if we look at the intellectuality of this issue, or the intellectualization of this issue, those are the things that people are talking about white fragility, the browning of America. And from what it appears is that from the white perspective, they will not acknowledge either of those things. They'll just say that you're a Democrat. And that's enough.
Terence Shigg :Yeah. And that's what I was talking about those definitions. It's like, okay, I don't care what you just said, This is my definition of who you are. So this is the filter I'm going to see it through. And this is what I'm going to say that you believe. Even though I just told you something totally different and asked you to think about something. You just ignored that and you're gonna give me a platitude that you heard somewhere else about me, and I'm sitting right in front of you. absolutely refused to talk to you, right? So or actually refuse to listen, because oftentimes people will feign engagement into a conversation, right about these issues, but they're not listening. And they're not imbibing what you're saying. Because in their mind, they're still in their camp. And nothing that the other person can say, is going to change their mind, as if having your position in full
Shawn B. McCullers Esq. :My actual knowledge is a negative.
Terence Shigg :One of the things that I've been really challenged with and I wanted to have your opinion on it, because I keep thinking about it. And I just, my brain hasn't sorted it out yet. Both of us have a lot of friends that are that are law enforcement. You have even family members that are law enforcement. Yes. And we've talked about it before, it's how this culture has to change yet. They fight it tooth and nail, rather than, like you said, imbibing the information, making the decisions for themselves and what is going to look like rather than being told. And it's, it's like, it's like a you're in a dog fight just to get them to listen.
Shawn B. McCullers Esq. :It goes to you're absolutely correct. And here's the funny thing. It is policing in general, most law firms philosophers that I know will tell you the very same thing, whether they're white, black or Hispanic, because we know folks across the whole spectrum, whether they're male or female, police officers will start with what civilians this, or these people. Right? In descript monikers that painted with a broad brush, but the first thing your copies will tell you well, that's not me. I don't do that. You need to judge me based on what I do. Right? Well, you just painted all civilians with the same brush. As if they're not individuals also. Well, this is a job. That's not who I am. You don't know anything about me. Okay. And when you're called to a scene or you're called to an incident to interact with the public, which is what you were paid to do the pay professional on the scene. Your initial interaction can't be tainted by what you believe about all civilians. And they they, across the board, even so far as my own family, who I obviously, you know, they were the impetus for me becoming a law enforcement officer love my family to death. However, that sterber obstinance to take a side and that side always falling on the blue line. Right, even when a most black professional police officers, they realize that they don't receive the same treatment from the agency that their white counterparts do. So you're towing a lie? Right? And what are you receiving in benefit for toeing the line with staying in line for folding in place for follow orders that you know are right because the first time data, hey, you can tell me if I'm wrong. First day of border patrol Academy, you sit near you get off the bus, at the facility. And what they tell you grab your bag, your rucksack and they say what no matter what happens, no matter who orders you to do something is going to following you because you know right from wrong. Right, right every police academy and I've heard of has the same speech. However, police want to be the most unaccountable people on the face of the planet. Right? You will all power, what you don't want any of the responsibility and how you wield that power. And that is the dynamic from which I believe we must start addressing these issues and parsing these issues. And if people are honest, I don't think they can even put up a fight. fathomable argument against that, right? Because the first thing that they want to say when you lock somebody up, and you know people are griping about getting locked up Well, sir, or Ma'am, you did this and we all have to be accountable. But we know that's not really true, right? It's not really true because the police are the least account some of the least accountable people in our society.
Terence Shigg :Yes, and I and that's the part that I'm and you know, me I'm a I'm a problem solver going okay. Now, what do we do about it type and that's the frustrating part to me is it's not as if they don't know right, because there has been report after report after report and report by police organizations that have said okay, these are the these are the shortcomings, these are the things you need to change going forward. And, but as a group and as individuals We fight it tooth and nail. And my thing is it's coming, this change, this reform is coming. And you can be part of that solution. Or you can get rolled over by it. But no matter what you think it's going to come, it's going to happen. Absolutely. And the key to that is if you don't change your way, right, the reality is you're gonna end up in a cell, because that's also the way it's going. You know, you and I have talked about this. For years, we talked about discussing this issue in this format. And the reality of it is we always come down on the same side, we do take different approaches to how we
Shawn B. McCullers Esq. :try to break into this conversation with our counterparts, or in my case, my family members or so on. But the reality is, as I've said, from a legal standpoint, the reasonable officer standard of living for the audience, that is the one of the legal doctrines by which a lawsuit against the police is evaluated along with whether whatever excessive force or whatever violation of a person's civil rights under 1983 suit or bivins action. Their reasonableness is counted and weighed. And additionally, whether what they did constituted a violation of a well established law. It is a mix and it's a toxic mix of legal doctrine that has been passed down from actually from the from the judiciary, which, in my personal opinion, is one of the most insidious parts of the systems and institutions in the United States because they have the most power and the least accountability because everyday citizens don't know what these judges are doing in a courtroom. And they don't cognate they are able to cook together. How What's going on in the courtrooms and the decisions that judges are making in civil cases? And in criminal cases? And what evidence they're willing to let in with evidence, they're not willing to let it how that manipulates a jury into what usually is the jury nullification or acquittal of a law enforcement officer or a determination that they're covered by qualified immunity and therefore, you no longer have a basis for lawsuit? So people will say, Well, hey, what why didn't you know the case got thrown out, but they still settled? Well, why do departments settle? Right? And oftentimes, they'll still settle because they don't want you to appeal the case. and win the appeal and create new precedent around these issues, qualified immunity, the reasonable officer standard, or whether a certain a particular kind of violation of your constitutional rights is a well established law. And it's one of the greatest legal fictions that allows police officers to escape accountability. They don't have to if even if they were found guilty or there's a settlement, they don't have to pay out of their own pocket. So they never, they never reap the unjust fruits of whatever it is that they've done that violated citizens rights. So there's ultimately no accountability, and then in steps to police union to get them their job back. So now they feel like Superman and bulletproof.
Terence Shigg :Right. And so you went into it an interesting area, and I want to get your expertise on that. Because the the general public and we know it, the general public doesn't, and I'm not saying it from they shouldn't know. I mean, there's no reason for them to know the dynamics and the procedures that go into a shoot no shoot situation. So from a legal aspect and you touched on a little bit, can you can you break that down in layman's terms What this process is supposed to look like, as opposed to the, the What do they call it the reconstruction of what it's supposed to look like that a lot of times the defense attorneys will do or the police attorneys will do. Okay, absolutely. So let's say for instance, let's take the current case that's most prevalent right now. Mr. Jacob Blake out of Kenosha, Wisconsin. All right, typically, police officers in the legal fiction was the legal precedent was configured based upon the premise that an officer who commits a violation of somebody's civil rights has the ability to be sued along with his department, and the city or or entity with whom they're employed. Okay, however, in order to allow
Shawn B. McCullers Esq. :That case to stay in court. There's a series of motions, which are legal documents that oftentimes have a brief portion. The motion is just asking the court for something. The it will be accompanied by a Legal Brief, which will explain all the law surrounding weather the facts and circumstances of the particular incident. In this case, let's say for example, the lawsuit allege that on the day that Mr. Blake was shot, he went to his vehicle he was at the scene the police officers arrived, they tased them. The taser had no effect or the prongs didn't contact. Mr. Jacob then walked away from the police. And at that point, opened his car door with three police until an officer whatever his name is, decided that point that he grabbed Mr. Mr. Blake buy a shirt and then proceeded to with the service weapon, shoot him seven times that point blank range and that force was excessive. Right? This an excessive force case. 1983 is the section of law under which entity, a governmental agency. These are all suits lawsuits that are predicated upon the grounds that someone who worked for a governmental entity has violated your civil rights. And 1983 is the code section for police officers or state actors, as they call them, who have violated your rights, that the government has agreed to be sued under, because traditionally, governments can't be sued for anything. They are certainly numerated things that they've allowed themselves to fall party to suit boy, meaning that you can sue them or only certain issues. Like, like this excessive force 1983 or some violation of a civil right by government agency, whether that government agency, the municipal, county, state or federal. Okay, so once you filed a lawsuit the government has to answer. So they will file an answer usually denying all of your claims whether they happen or not. Whether there's a video or not, they're going to initially denied a claim. Right? Those are their defenses. And quite honestly, it really is a false hood because the theory behind legal practice says that an attorney has to be truthful. An attorney can't bring a lawsuit where the facts that are in that lawsuit are less than the truth. Right. So basically, one is facing outright denial is clearly untrue, right? Because you got a video Right, and those facts aren't even in dispute. So that's the first part that people have to understand. The law has a baked intolerance for some fiction. Right? So they'll deny the lawsuit. Next will come the motion to dismiss the lawsuit. The motion to dismiss will say, Hey, this is what they allege. But my guy's a police officer. And he had lawful legal privilege to do X, Y and Z because they told us the shop must stop, Mr. Shelton, this, Mr. Blake didn't stop. And he went into his vehicle. And my officer reasonably believed that his life was in danger of either grievous bodily harm or loss of life to Him or somebody else. And therefore, because he had a reasonable belief then he was justify based upon the use of force continuum, to use his firearm and therefore, there was no excessive force. And because there was no excessive force. And the law wasn't clearly established, because there's another case, under similar circumstances where officer didn't grab the party that was trying to get into the car, and that party got a weapon and shot the officer in there for another reasonable officer would have done the same thing that my guy did. And therefore, he's entitled to qualified immunity. What is qualified immunity immunity in and of itself is like a vaccination. When they talk about how a vaccine gives you immunity. It's a defense that your body creates to absolve you or rid you of whatever ailment that it is that it's intended to fight. So, immunity under the circumstances in terms of qualified immunity, because there are two kinds of legal immunity, you've got qualified immunity, which is subject to judicial determination, based upon the facts of the case by a judge who decides that the facts or circumstances surrounding the case the officer acted reasonably, and he didn't violate any well established law. And therefore, he can be granted that immunity. And once that immunity determination is made, then the lawsuit is thrown out. Right, or you might be able to maintain the lawsuit. If you can show that the officers actions were custom and policy of that particular agency, meaning that the head people that make decisions knew about it and knew that this was is going to take place or that it it likely would take place because of the lack of training or lack of supervision or something like that. You may be able to maintain a lawsuit against the agency and a police chief, possibly, and maybe the city, but usually the death nail in the coffin. Is that motion to dismiss? All right, in the determination that the officer acted reasonably which the reasonable officer standard to me is lacking, right. In layman's terms, why is it lacking? It leaves officers, it has the effect of allowing Austin's escape all culpability and responsibility, whether they've acted reasonably or not, because all officers aren't reasonable. And because there's no objective standard as to what the law says reasonable behavior is, is nebulous and subjective based upon Whatever another reasonable officer would do. Well, you and I know well, that officers aren't reasonable. Some officers are extremely scary. Some officers are prone to short tempers, some officers are far too lacks. Some officers don't pay attention. We've worked with probably everybody in that category. Some officers are going home and have no knowledge of what the law that they're actually supposed to be enforcing states. So they take actions based upon what they believe to be true, as opposed to what is lawful. Right, because an officer doesn't have a right to do anything to you. Right? They have a legal privilege that allows them to violate the constitutional rights of a citizen in terms of search and seizure based upon certain specific facts, right, whether you violate the law in some way that they Either witnessed or they have reasonable information to base a decision on that you highly likely violated the law. That's that's really what it is. And most police officers, as you will know, don't understand that. They think that the uniform is a license to enter, right. That gives them the ability to do what they want to you. And as we I know that I've often heard, I will say, I've often heard officers say, well, you don't have any rights, like except the rights that I give you. Right during an encounter, which is absolutely absurd. I think we start there, but we finish at, you know, accountability, which is where we should start because the second thing they tell you is what you are going to be held to the highest standard which is a institution of police fiction right? As opposed to a judicial fiction is the institution of polices fiction. And it's almost as if it's like they play off these two things. They say you're going to be held to a higher standard. Yet, just as you've explained with qualified immunity, you're actually playing to the lowest common denominator. Absolutely. Well stated. No, no, no, not only the lowest common denominator, but then they really slap the definitive plaintiff in the face and say that the law is not well established. The second prong, right. We all know that any seizure by law enforcement officer at anytime, anytime they stop you, it is a seizure under the Fourth Amendment of the United States Constitution, right. They start asking you questions about what took place where you go, where you come in from, right and did you do this And they haven't read you your Miranda rights. So people think oh, well, you know, I'll have to tell him that and well if you don't tell him what they teach you in Academy until you talk to people like you, like they have to do what you say. They used to say it as a question, but it's really an order that people interpret as an order. Right. So the officer presence comes in. Absolutely. Absolutely. So, you know, when you look at it in its totality, the whole thing is a fraud. Right? The reality is any stop that a police officer anytime police officer has you stopped somewhere or approaches you and doesn't allow you to leave and you're in a property you're in a private business or private property with a legally have no authority apps absent the owner the establishment in most states, or designated authorized representative by the owner of that establishment, gives them the right or asked them to come in and investigate a particular thing, absent that they don't even have any authority in a private business or on private property. So, you know, it's a confluence of really the state's desire to have police of the states and the rich, right, the elite people's desire to feel safe from everyday citizens. And that desire to feel safe, allows them to prompt their enforcement arm, which is the law enforcement agencies around the country to violate citizens rights so that they can feel safe. And in that Fousey and bargain is the fact that all right, you're going to do what I tell you to do, you will go out here, you're going to patrol these areas where these these, these folks live, right, and you will put pressure on them and you will keep them in line so that they don't affect us stealing money and robbing the coffers and making money Right in these businesses and for us to drive home at night and not have to lock our doors, you will keep them where they're at in the inner city. And you're not going to let him out. You won't press him a walking down the street. I want you to do. pedestrian stops, Pez stops, that's their favorite thing. broken windows policing. Right? They can call it by different name, but it's the same thing. Stop and Frisk. Right? I smell marijuana, right? All those things that get them in to violating your rights. Oh, an officer can say I smell marijuana, then you could be Jesus Christ, driving a car. Never seen a wheat in your life. Right? The only perfect person in the folklore of American history in the in the theology theological center. Right. But he had some wheat. If he had a wheat, you know, he had nail prints in his hand, who has no prints in his hand that was suspicious and then when We got him out he just had on the roof. All he had on was a row, but he was in his car who drives around in the road. That was suspicious. Also, now you Superman, you can see the route through the door. Right? Right. But we're going to ignore that because the law also says we don't have to consider and are not allowed to consider in this analysis, the officers motivation. So if you're not allowed to consider the officers motivation, what does that naturally lead to? That means racial profiling and its illegality is no longer at issue, even though it's on the books.
Terence Shigg :So it's unenforceable because you've taken away the, the means to prove that? Absolutely. By absolute. So where does it leave the regular citizen, the average hard worker person because let's be frank, most vehicle stops, at least out of thousands of vehicle stops.
Shawn B. McCullers Esq. :We I myself have done I know that you've done, you know, 98% of those. Well, I was seeing ID let's say 95 95% of those vehicle stops, didn't lead to anybody being arrested or any contraband or illegal illegal contraband being found. And quite frankly, I enjoy being a law enforcement guy. I wanted to do this since I was three years old. And I was blessed to have done it. And I think that in most instances, except that one night You made me sit upstairs, I was ticked off and you took my turn over the road. I think I treated people pretty fairly. I didn't put my hands on people unless I had a reason to. Because I knew how that felt coming from a city like Philadelphia, dealing with race issues. I didn't have a lot of run ins with the police in Philadelphia. I actually had a lot of run ins with the police in the suburbs where I was trying to drive to to go to school, but I've seen a little bit Everything growing up in a projects and then being a neighborhood, you know, you see a lot of crazy stuff, some of it deserved. And you see the police trying to keep peace trying to keep drugs off the street trying to stop violence. You also had those officers that didn't do much of anything except for raspy. You know, so so I've been blessed to be able to look at this system from all sides and even spent the weekend in jail. That was horrible. Uh huh. For bogus warrant at that. So it's funny the experiences God allows you to go through rather than look at it in that sense at that time. But, you know, some agents and wisdom made me sit in somebody else's shoes for a minute and not judge people so harshly based on my experience as a law enforcement officer, because I will admit back then, while I didn't mistreat people, I didn't get Have a lot of latitude for people that committed crimes. I mean, you know, I was about a book guy, you did it, she was getting locked up, period. That's it. That's all what we attempt to do, I guess in this context is to inform people. I guess to wrap it up, though, one of the things and I you touched on it, which reminded me of it is a lot of what people don't know. So
Terence Shigg :as young brothers are out there as people are out there and we encounter police. I don't think people understand Okay, there are certain things that you have the right to do. And there's a certain things that the police have the right to ask you in to to ask for. And I think what that officer presents, as we talked about, it gets blurred, because it sounds like I have to do it. And most people don't know. Absolutely, absolutely. And
Shawn B. McCullers Esq. :is the key component. I mean, are Listen, people perish for the lack of knowledge. That's really what it is. And then you're not gonna win a fight with the police on the street. I'll be the first one to tell you that and I hate to as a civil rights attorney and a criminal defense attorney. In part at times, I just, I hate to tell people that because this way, I also know that the system is not going to work for them in a way that it's supposed to. But I'm about saving people's lives, hoping that they survive police encounters, even though I probably don't have enough sense to do everything the police would tell me to do. Right. With with the information I have and I possess about this system. I'm not probably going to do exactly what they want me to do. Right. Why? Because I have some. I have some knowledge of the system. I know better is that the smartest thing in the world? No, it's not. Because for civilian, a person that doesn't have the knowledge that I have with a system to look like me, right? And whether I'm in a suit with my Fedora or whether I'm in my polo shirt, my Fitbit, the reality is that I have some information that other people don't also speak police's language. Right? I also still have a badge in my pocket. That would be retired, it's still a badge. So, so I'm insulated in some ways, right? But these days, that doesn't mean much. That doesn't mean things can't go off the rails, particularly in the current climate around the country. Right. So what I tell people is fold up your anger a bit. Take out your phone, start recording. If there multiple people in the group. Everybody should be recording. I know you're going to be scared. All right, and because you don't want to die, right, because that's what we're that's what we're forced to think about as black Americans. Yes. Right. We're forced to think about police encounters ending in our death, and nobody wants to die on time. So the reality is, there is strength in numbers. And you have to remember one thing, if you are ever answering questions from the police, or talking to the police, you've already said too much. I don't care what the question is. I don't care what your answer is. Because law abiding black folks still have the remnants of the 50s in the 60s, in the 40s, where they were forced to comply, and forced to answer all the questions that the police had at risk of death, which hasn't changed, right. The reality of that is, at the end of the day, if you're recording everybody's phone is ready. If something happens, you going out, you have to be thoughtful about how you're going out. If you're going out to group, you know what people's strengths are, right? The officer presence thing plays in because officers will make you feel compelled to answer. Right, so you won't be scared. You're going to think well, if I serve my right in and tell them that I don't have to answer their question, I'm gonna get beat shot or killed or teased or put in jail. Well, you got to resolve in your mind that I might have to go to jail tonight. I'm gonna go peacefully. I'm going to do whatever the police asked me to do. But I am going document. Right. any eventuality that what they're doing to me, is not cognizable under the law, meaning it's not consistent with the law, that I have to go see an attorney and talk to them about what my rights are, and the possibility of having a lawsuit. And that will have to be your go to but what I also caution people to do is to learn to write a decent complaint. Right? You can't register your register your complaint on the street, right? But you can go home. And you can when that officer stops you and they pull you out your car, they talk to you crazy, or they're disrespectful or they violate your rights, you say I want you to search my car. So while you're out the car, you and your friends are filming. Right? Because just because they have you stop, it doesn't take away all your other rights. The Supreme Court says you have a right to record police, right in the execution of their duties while they're doing so in public. Therefore, you get stopped. You can take out your phone and record somebody everybody should but you got to make sure at least if you want multiple people, at least two of them are recording if you want to keep your hands visible because you're the driver so you know, make sure that you stay in that video for Right out of the way of the police, don't interject. Put on that camera. Hey, I don't consent to a search officer and stop talking. They ask you questions. Where were you going? You don't have to answer that question. Where are you coming from? You don't have to answer that question. Is this car yours? You don't have to answer that question. they're entitled to get your registration if they do a motor vehicle, stop your insurance, and your driver's license. If you give them both of those, all three of those things are both two of those things that they need because most people, most states have their registration and insurance information in the computer system anyway. Right? So the cop knows when he pulls you over whether your car is insured and properly registered, so on so forth, but give it to him if you have it. And then don't talk. You're not required to answer any questions. You can either just not answer the question. Keep silent. Or you can say respectfully officer, I don't answer questions. Right? The stops go in, either with you getting a citation, or they gonna have to let you go in most instances, particularly if you're not answering any questions, because the only way that they build up reasonable suspicion or articulable facts, is by talking to you. They can say, well, this person told me this, but they told me they were going to McDonald's, or Martin Luther King, but they were over Abernathy, up by the funeral home, and McDonald's, there's no McDonald's around. And the only McDonald's that's close to there is on XYZ Street. So therefore, as an officer, I determined that they might be lying, and I found that suspicious. So unless you're talking to police, they don't have any information to go on. Unless they have a video or something in which case they just don't go in and like you up anyway. Take the ride. Still don't talk to the police. Actually Your turn. You got some we got to at this juncture in our country's history, we got to go back to the old school. We got to go back to the early civil rights movement and the black power movement and black revolutionary movement. And when they expect to be locked up, right, right, expected go to jail. But have somebody in your memory read, you know, remember a number, don't rely on your phone, that you can call and say, Hey, I'm in jail, I need you to come get me or be prepared to sit until you get seen by a public defender. That's the only way that you insulate your rights. Right? Because if I never give you any information, and you didn't have any to start, it becomes an easier case to prove that the police violated just civil rights. If they don't have anything aside from Hey, I pulled this person over. They may no statements to me, and I still took them to jail. And I found no contraband in their vehicle. Well, now they do Fourth Amendment violation for their seizure illegally. excessive force putting handcuffs on you, dragging your body and then out the car. Right. Now what can they say? Right? You didn't find anything in the cars a vehicle stop. It was the citation that most and you turn a citation into a rest because the people didn't want to answer questions. So you got to be strategic about survival, right? Because I call them survival seminars. When we talk about rights. You have to be strategic about your rights. You have to outflank people and we, as black folks, we have the added benefit, because we are minorities in a country that hates minorities, right? We love this country, but they don't love us. Right. So you've always had to code switch you've always been had to make others comfortable with your presence that forms a certain amount of intellect and emotional skill. And you use that intellect and that emotional skill to preserve your life. And in addition to that, to preserve your rights, don't argue with the police on the street Don't run. If the police stop you and you just walking down the street, you're not in the vehicle. Same thing applies respectfully officer, I don't want to have a discussing with you. Because at that point is consensual. If they say that they're detaining you, and most every state, once you're detained, you have to either give your true name and your birth date or you have to present some corner, some form of state ID. That's if you're being detained. If you're not being detained, meaning the officer doesn't stop you. You say I want to answer a question. He allows you he or she allows you to keep walking then the opposite So it is done and you keep on moving about your business. Most people are scared to even do that. Right? Because again, they think they're gonna get beat tased or, or beat and teased or shot. So, to be quite frank, they're probably right. Right because officers get this ego thing go, Oh, I want to talk to you and you don't want to talk. Oh, you want to talk to me? You got it I got a right to talk to you. Well, actually you don't. And that all sudden becomes the suspicion he wouldn't talk to me. Exactly. Exactly. So did you did if you do damned if you don't, right, right z or the power trip, this Superman or Superwoman overhead, right, a power trip and they got issues at home. You know what I mean? Is the law is supposed to protect you. However, the reality of the law is that the law protects the government protects their right to violate your rights. Right and to be accountable, right? Because we know that racism is about systems and institutions being weaponized against people, cultures, religions, and sexes in a racist. Right. So the reality of that is to maintain that system. They had to once Jim Crow was over, they had to fashion a system that made discrimination and racism appear to be legal still. Right? You got the 13th amendment, but what does it say? It says, All slavery is abolished, except if you commit a crime, right. So they're essentially saying we have reason to lock you up. Then you don't really have no right she's still asleep. Right, which takes you back to states like Georgia, Louisiana, where they still have changed game. alabama mississippi and got you or prison industrial complex they got you building unicor as you build and everything from the best police officers were which is crazy right we were issue unicore bulletproof vest what no vest made the prison man let's rock with you witching people you really think this they go work? Cool. Get point Blake it's up. You know to me it's the absurdity of the system and built in in accountability is right for this moment to be taken off. It really is. That is this is the moment and we can't as citizens as persons of black, black communities, we can't afford to let this moment pass. Right. We can't afford to be complacent information is Power. Your vote is power. Right? If we overwhelm these polls, and we get out here and participate and engage this system, then the numbers are gonna be too overwhelming for them to change anything. Right? That's the reality of it. You got live live in Atlanta. We just had a runoff for the district attorney spot. The district attorney here, Paul Howard had been in place for about 2426 years. Right. six terms I believe, and I think the terms of six years as far as I'm concerned, this brother didn't like brothers or sisters. Right, this office was a mess. He's dealing with allegations of corruption right now. And the alternative is not the best alternative in my book, because I know the alternative work for him. For me Quite a while believe 16 years was his right hand. Right? So now your choices is the acid. Right? Or the sulfuric acid or the water, right? The water, when it mixed with the sulfuric acid is will cause an explosion. I know, face out of my face is testament to right. So, at the end of the day, sometimes we must make a decision as a people or how to move forward and moving forward, may me in typically in political in the political realm oftentimes does mean choosing the lesser of two, two evils really, right, because that is a catalyst to change. Right you change something about that portion of the system and you force it to change Showing up to vote in the runoff election because neither one of them got 50% or 51%. This is a city of, you know, let's say 6 million people maybe more than that. Maybe less than that. But it Atlanta is a city that's full of people. Okay, one of the largest city's main cities in urban areas in this country. About last I looked, it was about 75,000 80,000 people voted in the runoff. I mean, if that's not contributed to your own detriment, if that's not contributing to your own problems, these people will affect your life every day, because they set the policies all politics are local. And I implore you, I implore you to start reading, to start inquiring about the people that you place in public office. I know you're Life is busy. I know it's hectic. Even in a time of Corona. I know you're trying to survive, feed your kids keep clothes on your back food on the table lights on all of that. But the reality is, the reason that we're in the position that we're in, is because for far too long, we got comfortable and took our eye off the ball. Political Reform became I got a halfway decent job, and I don't want to rock the boat. Voting isn't important. When people gave their lives for us to vote. They didn't even know you were going to exist. And they gave the ultimate sacrifice so that we would have the power to speak up, be heard and affect elections in the people who we put in the local office because that's what you really feel. But, but the reality of it is the local politicians, your school board, Members, your mayor, your city council members, in places that have all dementia aldermen, your your state senators, your state congressional people, those are the folks that affect you every single day. Their policy is the policy by which your everyday is shaped, right. National Policy doesn't usually impact people, at least in our communities, as readily as the decisions that are being made and your local politics. So you have to judge this come up on the ballot. They get elected, but judges sit on the bench for 3040 years. Right? Why? Because nobody knows who they are. That's why I said they're the most insidious part of this system. And they were part of the 90s police omnibus bill. Right? tough on crime. How do you think all these people ended up with all these lifetime sentences? Death penalties, all these exonerations you have exonerations damn near every day. Right? Someone's been in jail 36 years, 20 years. That's going back to the 80s. Right? back to the late 70s. Right? What How do you think those people got those kinds of sentences? They got those sentences by their local judges, the judges that sit on the Superior Court, or how you think people end up ridiculously with 20 years of probation for misdemeanor charge coming on state court. Right, these judges that sit on a bench for 20 or 30 years. They got they have pet peeves because they're human. Some of them are racist, to be quite frank, and some of them are well documented, well known to be racist, but who's keeping stats? They're not required the nobody's collected stats on how judges perform. There's no place that you can go to get that information with defendant was appeared before that. What was their race? What was that demographic information black man, white male, black woman white one, what were their crimes, their crimes could be the same prison their rap sheet could be the same, but the white person is gonna get sentenced to six years for manslaughter. Whereas this black person will get 20 years for the manslaughter 20 years for the attempted murder. And then 20 years for the Agha, so add up to a lifetime in prison. This guy is out the white guys out six years and probably with an enhancement because he had a weapon or something crazy a absolute an eagle throw out their hands chart for the white guy. Right, right. I mean, that's the reality that we live in. Right? Those are the systems and institutions the mechanisms of slavery, right? The mechanisms of racism. You know, you often hear people say, Oh, well, you know, black people always talk about white people and you only you're only mad when a white person, that's the latest thing. Only mad when a white person kills a black person. You're not mad when black people kill black white people. More man Stop it. We talk about state sponsored violence, because the state is racist systems and institutions are what create the mechanisms for keeping people in poverty. keeping people from having the right to vote. And voting wasn't important, right. I behoove your listeners to think about this if voting was an important. Why have they put so much energy into stopping people from voting? Yes. Right. I mean, if it didn't count, there wouldn't be a need to have voter suppression efforts. Because it doesn't count. Right? Right. So all the folks that keep talking about man, I say, when the system is right, when it's fair, then I'm a vote. That defeats the purpose. That's a cop out. And right now your people need you more than ever. Right? states, even felons can get their right to vote back. Right, Florida. We just seen the Supreme Court strike down the prohibition that they put in place trying to have people pay off any arrearages or anything of that nature before they could get their right to vote back because now settlers can vote in Florida. Yeah. All right, brother. Thanks again. And no UBC all right always brother art piece late. They
Unknown Speaker :came a long way.
Unknown Speaker :A long way
Unknown Speaker :and not could do what I can do. I can do Transcribed by https://otter.ai